Smaller Venues Keep Closing Even Though They're Vital to Our City's Nightlife by Dave Segal Music venue operators still booking live music and DJs are miracle workers. So many factors are working against them. The cost of everything is rising and music aficionados' wages mostly aren't keeping up. Clubbing has become an infrequent luxury for many.  When the venerable Crocodile announced plans to shutter in mid-December its two downstairs rooms—the 300-capacity Madame Lou's and the 100-capacity Here-After—it struck a sensitive nerve among Seattle's nightlifers. As someone who's attended many events at both spaces, I was surprised by this news. Most of the shows that I caught there were well-attended.  But, as Crocodile creative director/general partner Hunter Motto told the Seattle Times, "We had really professional and high-level operations in the space and it has been challenging to deal with revenue on the bar side going down over the years and expenses going up." When asked if the Crocodile had found partners to take over the venues, Motto said, "Sadly, nothing we can discuss with the press about yet!" In the wake of this ominous development, it's an opportune time to take the temperature of the city's venue owners, talent buyers, and musicians. Given that only 40 percent of Washington state indie venues are profitable, according to the National Independent Venue Association, consensus views skew toward pessimism. And THING Festival going on indefinite hiatus adds to the feeling of gloom. Clearly, the city's culturati need to find creative solutions to these chronic problems. The Stranger interviewed several musicians and venue operators to find out how they're faring in these perilous times and what paths they hope to take to reverse fortunes.  THE MUSICIANS The Stranger: After the closure of Madame Lou's and Here-After, how do you feel about the state of Seattle's music scene and venue options for artists who typically play rooms under 750 capacity? Nicolle Swims (Black Ends): The venue options in Seattle for smaller artists have always been scant. Losing Madame Lou’s is really just an eye-opening event for people who haven’t been paying attention. Venues around this city are closing constantly, and I think there are many factors in that. [B]ehind the curtain in the DIY part of the scene, things are absolutely thriving in such a beautiful way. Younger people just don’t have money to pay $20 for a local show. Older people don’t have money or even time to think of going to a show unless they’ve finally got a nice free day or a good job. Commercial venues are dying; the scene is not. But it will make it hard for this to keep growing if there are no stages for artists to play as their audience widens. This was a heavy hit of realization for people to finally see things like this will keep happening if nothing changes. If Madame Lou’s couldn’t be saved, are we confident in other smaller venues sticking around? These places are absolutely vital to a scene. DIY music is thriving here. If we can bring that kind of energy to commercial spaces, it’d probably save some of them. We need to strengthen the scene; there are so many local artists who are worthy of your attention right now. Venues change frequently, but I’ll name a few medium-sized venues everyone should [frequent]: Tractor Tavern, the Sunset, Clock-Out Lounge, the Mountain Room, Baba Yaga (my personal favorite). Keep supporting the scene. Tomo Nakayama: I've noticed that a lot of smaller venues are no longer doing shows on weeknights in favor of trivia or karaoke or DJ nights, which makes it harder for smaller touring bands to book shows. That creates more competition on the weekends, and fewer people going to shows through the week.  Daniel Lyon (Packaging/Rabbit Box Theatre): We are at a point where the city, or nonprofits, could help and step in to keep these key establishments open during hard times. I've seen this at a lot of smaller venues in Europe we played that have some costs offset by grants and city support. It's possible.  It's even more concerning to lose independent venues, as I fear that large concert promoters and ticketing platforms could take over this market, which have a history of high fees, not paying artists fairly, and monopolizing the market. Noel Brass Jr. (Afrocop, Select Level, solo): [Madame Lou’s and Here-After's closure] highlights even more the fragile balance between artists and venues in a city that has become increasingly less accessible to working musicians. It pushes forward the need for more solidarity between the two to foster a robust and always changing/interesting scene. Erica Rose (Erica Rose and the Ragged School/Appaloosa): Losing Madame Lou's and Here-After is especially unfortunate because of the unique nature and connectivity of the venue. My band played Freakout Weekender a few years ago and almost the entire fest was housed in that complex.  That being said, I've played music in Seattle (and NYC) for close to two decades now and have come to realize that venues come and go. Usually, it leaves a door open to growth and evolution within the music scene. There are still a decent amount of somewhat similarly sized venue options such as the Sunset, Belltown Yacht Club, Add-a-Ball, Clock-Out, and Barboza. On the newer side, there's Baba Yaga, which is a super-awesome spot to play. That's one thing I really miss, the presence of all-ages venues (and house shows!). They still exist, but not as prevalently as in the past. Mt Fog (answered collectively): Our friends and fellow artists have been putting on intimate shows in spaces like their tiny apartments (shout-out to Jesy Fortino of Tiny Vipers) and unusual places (like Aquarium Zen and Ink Knife Press). These have been some of our favorite spots to experience music and perform these past few years. At the same time, traditional, midsized venues continue to be important places to create art in real time and connect with community on a slightly larger scale. We feel like there could be more awareness around the tough financial situation the smaller venues and working-class artists who perform at them face. The music industry is broken and only a few billionaires (who appear to hate art, themselves, and people) seem to be making any money. But locally we can make things better. We wonder what our new mayor might be interested in doing to support Seattle arts.  Michiko Swiggs (iroiro): Seattle still has a lot of great options for smaller venues, and people continue to open up new places, even though it's such a difficult business to run financially. Indie comedy is having such a moment, so I feel like losing Here-After may be the bigger loss. Christopher Garland (Acapulco Lips, Chico Detour): It feels like every year, our venue options for live shows get smaller, but I do feel like there are still great places to play. It’s definitely getting harder to venture out to other venues aside from the Sunset, BYC, Tractor, etc. Chico Detour got to play at an awesome spot called Mosswood Loft, which I had never heard of before, but it was so cool and made me wonder what other venues are out there that I haven’t gotten to play yet! There are some newer places like Baba Yaga, Hidden Hall, and the upstairs at Add-a-Ball that are giving us some options! The Stranger: How have you been drawing in 2025 compared to your shows earlier in the decade? What factors do you think have led to these results?  Nicolle Swims: Black Ends gets a good draw. I feel as if we get a better draw than we did pre-pandemic, actually. Especially with the all-ages venues and house shows popping up (which are my favorite places to play). The kids really give a damn about new bands and new music, and that is what really pushes the Seattle scene forward.  I love playing venues, but I think younger people don’t come out to shows at venues as much as their DIY shows and a lot of older folk are too tired to give a hell anymore. I’m not sure how to fix it, but getting more established bands/artists who still can play medium-sized venues and smaller local bands who are well known on the DIY spectrum of things on bills together would definitely get people out more.  We need to make a way for shows to be exciting again. Make events out of it, make things all ages a little more and if not [always] all ages, promote shows in less boring ways! Start blasting them on local stations, make and hand out flyers again. Make it a unique experience.  Tomo Nakayama: I just sold out an album-release show at the Fremont Abbey, and attendance at my shows has generally grown or stayed steady, but I know I'm very lucky because that hasn't been the case for a lot of artists. Right after the pandemic and George Floyd protests, you saw venues really trying hard to book diverse, challenging bills, but you're seeing less of that these days. My fear is that the emphasis on drawing big crowds is going to water down the music to the point that there is no alternative to the mainstream. Daniel Lyon: As someone who also [books] a 100-capacity room, the Rabbit Box Theatre, we've seen ticket sales decline over the years a bit. We've fought very hard to keep the venue alive because we believe it's so important to have a place for intimate shows. I feel it's due to the economy, and people feeling exhausted by politics. But [shows are] also an amazing escape and a place to find community and joy among the insanity happening in the world.  Erica Rose: Draws vary. So much of a good draw goes into promotion by both the bands and the venue as well as the specific night that the show falls on and what else is going on that night. My bands have played some shows with great draws in 2025 and some with lesser draws. The best draws seem to come with shows where all the bands are actively promoting and the venue is also a part of that promotion.  Other factors like KEXP or label promotion would help, as well. I think the main difference between now and when I played in bands in Seattle pre-2012 is the loss of venues such as the old Funhouse, the old Comet, the old Black Lodge, the Highline, the FBK [Firebreathing Kangaroo House], and the Morgue. There was definitely a real sense of community.  Mt Fog: We keep finding new fans and our supporters keep supporting our art. We are always strengthening our connections. However, we definitely feel that fans and artists alike are overwhelmed with how much everything costs and the deluge of options for how to spend our [time].  Michiko Swiggs: Attendance has been pretty good the last year. For a while, it seemed like people were only interested in going to large festivals, big stadium shows, and big raves, and the pandemic turned everything upside down. And after things opened up again, every single band went on tour and every '90s band had a reunion tour and the market was just so over-saturated. Now, with everything being so expensive, bands can't afford to go on tour and ticket prices are too high, but people still want to experience live music. Maybe this will be a good time for smaller/cheaper events with local acts. Christopher Garland: [My bands' draws in 2025 have] been surprisingly steady, if not more compared to earlier in the decade. I’m not sure if that’s due to gaining a little bit of a following, or if people just want to get out and see a show… maybe a combination of both?  Cat Valley shredding at Baba Yaga in Pioneer Square. BRITTNE LUNNISS VENUE OWNERS/TALENT BUYERS The Stanger: How has business been in 2025 compared to previous years this decade? And what factors do you think have impacted business? Maxwell Edison (Belltown Yacht Club/Screwdriver Bar): Business has been down somewhat this year, but really, since the world shut down in 2020, it’s been an uphill battle. With rising living costs, tours being sidelined by illness/quarantine processes, limited government assistance for small businesses, and higher taxes/COGS [Cost of Goods Sold], it’s challenging for many of us to survive. Fewer people go out, fewer can afford to drink or even care to, and fewer touring bands are coming to Seattle. Artists from overseas are having difficulty obtaining visas and entering the country in 2025. How can multiple venues sustain in a single city with this equation?  Adam Prairie (Sunset Tavern): It's been a wild ride. Some months this year have been really good (we had some special 25th-anniversary shows that helped), and we had a month or two span in the summer that was really rough. Summer is always tough in Seattle, since there are so many outdoor things to do and see, but this year was noticeably worse. It would be fair to attribute it to perhaps some uneasiness about the state of the world among buyers, bar sales that continue to drop because of changing consumer habits, and maybe lingering effects from a festival bubble that showed up in 2022 from post-lockdown enthusiasm, popped, and continued to contract. Carmel Spiro (Sea Monster Lounge): Business in 2025 for our venue seems to be doing a little bit better. Getting the word out on all our shows and keeping up on updating all the sites [help]. Plus, playing good music seven nights a week and two shows a day six nights a week. Yes, price increases all around don’t help, but owner Mark Mattrey keeps on adapting to that by gently raising our prices and keeping our overhead down as much as he can.  Chris King (Add-a-Ball): Business has been pretty great, considering we just opened the venue last January. Lots to improve on, but we hope to expand and do even better in 2026!  John Dimitriou (Jazz Alley): We have not seen a dramatic change from previous years and feel very fortunate business has maintained reflecting a steady pattern. I believe having been in business for so many years, along with our location and parking situation, are key factors.  Steven Severin (Neumos/Barboza): We are doing about the same as in the past, which is lucky for us. WANMA (WA Nightlife and Music Association) just released numbers that show that 60 percent of the venues in Washington state are losing money. It was a little rough for the first year or two [after lockdown] for us. We have younger folks coming to shows and dance nights. We did a good job pivoting even before by adding these dance nights. We will have two shows in one night at Neumos sometimes on the weekends. It’s generally an early live show and then dance party after with a whole other crowd that comes in. Barboza has two shows a night every Friday and Saturday. We are always trying to figure out what people want.  Andy Palmer (Nectar Lounge/Hidden Hall): In 2019 and early 2020, it felt like business was at an all-time peak. Of course, for the duration of the shutdown we did the lowest business ever, but were able to keep basic operations running by producing over 100 livestream concerts at Nectar and High Dive. When we reopened, business was hard, as we had to operate at a limited capacity and people were still wary about going out. In late 2022 and 2023, touring resumed and business picked up as people had more discretionary income and "pent-up demand." That sustained pretty well through 2023 and 2024, but in 2025 things took a turn again, as artists were less inclined to go on the road, whether due to an increase in expenses or a decline in ticket sales or both. We had just taken over operations at High Dive in the months leading up to the pandemic. Headed into 2025, we had the opportunity to move [High Dive's] operations to a beautiful new room with unique features and much more space... and in April of 2025 we opened Hidden Hall! We had a dozen or more underplays (shows that would usually play in a larger room) and started to do higher numbers and sell out shows as fans started to find the room and seemed to quickly love it. Reviews from both guests and performing artists have been really good! There are also difficulties as compared to pre-pandemic years: We see a trend in fewer younger concert-goers, fewer alcohol sales, and fewer national and international artists on tour—both due to generally rising costs of touring (gas, flights, rentals, hotels, food, everything) and also due to the increased costs and difficulties associated with securing touring visas. That said, our business is ramping up at Hidden Hall and sustaining nicely at Nectar. Jodi Ecklund (Clock-Out Lounge): Business in 2025 has been both unpredictable and challenging compared to previous years. Our operating costs have increased dramatically—everything from labor and insurance to basic cost of goods. Those rising expenses create a much tighter margin than we had earlier in the decade. We’ve also seen a steady decline in alcohol sales.  Attendance for up-and-coming touring acts and local bands still hasn’t returned to pre-pandemic levels. That segment of the calendar used to be more reliable, and the slower turnout has made it harder to take chances on developing artists. The high cost of living in Seattle has had a major impact on business, especially for independent venues.  The Stranger: If business has diminished this year, what steps do you plan to take to reverse your fortunes? If business has improved, to what do you attribute it? Maxwell Edison: We plan to diversify events further. A good mix of genre-spanning shows with projected draw, interactive events like karaoke/trivia/drag, and leaning into private parties to fill gaps. Steven Severin: People want to hear their favorite artists on loud sound systems where they can get all hot and sweaty dancing with their friends. Of course this has happened in clubs for years, but they didn’t generally have Emo Nights, Taylor Swift and Friends, or the Brat parties. Andy Palmer: In response to the decline in alcohol sales, we've increased our nonalcoholic drink offerings, including developing a list of mocktails based on our specialty cocktail menu. We also have three beautiful VIP rooms at Hidden Hall that fans can reserve to "level up" their concert experience, as well as reservable seating. It's also a great room for private events, and we've been doing more and more of those. We're continuing to invest in the venue and the team and the shows—leaning into bigger shows with bigger artists and never compromising when it comes to our programming.  Jodi Ecklund: We’re approaching this moment with a mix of realism and proactive strategy. We are still [championing] local music and emerging artists, but the economic pressures in Seattle have made it more challenging to take risks and maintain the diverse programming that we are known for. We are mixing in more events that are self-contained or have little production costs. We have invested more into advertising than in previous years. We are hoping to get more private parties and large group reservations.  The Stranger: How does the news of Madame Lou's and Here-After closing affect your outlook about the state of Seattle's entertainment scene? Is it possible you will benefit by picking up desirable artists who might have performed there? Chris Jones (BYC/Screwdriver Bar): The recent closures only reaffirm that every small independent venue is in trouble. The Live Music Census clearly shows how drastically show attendance has dropped—and how fewer people are drinking even when they do attend. This isn’t just a Seattle music scene issue; it’s a US live-music problem in a post-COVID world. Costs are rising for artists and operators alike, and with attendance and bar sales down, other revenue avenues are being explored. Supporting live music and independent venues has never been more important. We’ve picked up shows from the Crocodile and are glad to host, but the model and system are broken—and getting work from a fallen comrade is a hollow victory. Adam Prairie: We've picked up a number of shows that were originally going to be at Madame Lou's. Carmel Spiro: The news of a venue closing down is always sad news to me, but I’m happy to hear they are able to save the main part of it. It’s also a lesson in keeping overhead down and watching your spending.  Chris King: Those two rooms are so well put together and facilitate a special place in our hearts. It means that we as a community need to stay strong and work together to stay afloat!  Steven Severin: When the pandemic hit, all venues got together to figure out how we can help each other keep our doors open, and that’s why we formed WANMA, and I joined NIVA the next week. We are the seventh-highest city regarding ticket sales for live shows in the country. That means there’s always someone that wants to play our rooms. I’m really fuckin’ bummed they couldn’t make it. Mario Abata (Nectar Lounge/Hidden Hall): We recently opened Hidden Hall in Fremont, which is well positioned for the new landscape, being in a similar capacity range to Madame Lou's. It has been an exciting development for us in Fremont and we're been getting a lot of positive feedback on it so far.  Jodi Ecklund: Madame Lou’s and Here-After closing is alarming, and it reinforces what many of us in the independent venue community have been feeling for a while. The live music landscape is under a real strain. [Both] were respected, well-run venues with strong identities and consistent programming. When places like that can’t survive, it signals that the challenges we’re facing aren’t isolated; they’re systemic.  I have confirmed a couple of shows that were previously booked at Madame Lou's. I'm also in negotiation with a few different promoters who previously hosted shows in both rooms. I don’t view their closures as an opportunity so much as a loss for the music and nightlife landscape. When respected venues disappear, it reduces the number of stages available to artists at all levels—especially emerging acts—and that ultimately hurts the entire scene.  The disappearance of places like Madame Lou’s and Here-After is a sign of how much pressure independent venues are under, and it makes collaboration and support within the community more important than ever. If we want these spaces to remain part of Seattle’s cultural landscape, it takes consistent turnout. My hope is that the closures we’re seeing serve as a reminder of how important it is to actively support the places we value, not just mourn them after the fact. ...read more read less